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Post by boscoe on Sept 9, 2007 19:39:55 GMT -5
tatooine: LMAO, guy. Get over the cheerleader thing. I never called YOU a cheerleader. I think my point was uninformed cheerleading is as silly as senseless bashing. ___
Invicta's ebauche maker is Asian. S. Coifmann is based in Switzerland. ______
@koi: I know my BEDAT has absolutely no Asian parts. Every single piece of the watch was made in Switzerland. That's a good thing! I was reading yesterday - and I'm serious - about a Chinese political prisoner who was shipped off to be a "cadre" at a Chinese watch factory. Not making this up. Frightening stuff when you think about it.
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Post by markdl on Sept 9, 2007 22:53:04 GMT -5
Not to defend defend the Chinese, but people in our prison system make stuff too. It figures they've got them making cooler stuff than our lousy American prisoners. And who knows what we've got them doing in Guantanomo. Ahh the magic of the TOIF. Talk of political prisoners, dog breeding, classism, cheerleading. We do it all. I'm on the phone now with PETA to fire the next salvo in our debate. I'm filing a complaint against Uddie and the whole dog show racket. I say it's cruel to make them get those funny haircuts. It's as bad as those kiddie beauty contests. And here are some more smileys from me. I like 'em. ;D ;D
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Post by wally on Sept 9, 2007 23:58:01 GMT -5
I truely wonder how long it takes before the treatment of forum members here in Invictaland forces this subforum to be closed. No other forum here resembles anything like this place. This subforum's ridiculous. I stopped frequenting it because of the hostility from those blind Invicta worshippers. Every once in a blue moon I check it to see there are any new Invicta watches to point out to my friends that still have an affinity or the brand's product, I see the Invicta Secret Police putting down everyone who even raises the slightest of quips about Invicta.
It's not the consumer's fault that Invicta is a sales-driven company that is impervious of any aspect of business other than marketing, distribution, and outsourcing. Numerous Invicta customers have been let down by how over-hyped their products are and then receiving a timepiece that falls apart after a month or two. If you're one of those who fails to believe, or even acknowledge Invicta's faults as a company, then I truely fear you, for you are bane of a capitalist society. There are none more dangerous to humanity than one who cannot see the difference between broken vs whole; wasteful vs. efficient; or smog vs. clean air. Many watch collectors have learned to see through the sales gimmicks of companies such as Invicta, SWI, or just about any watch offered on television. Of course, there's an entire different circle of those who actually enjoy the sales presentations made by Eyal and his counterparts from competing brands as seen on television, and tune in to each show as if it's a hobby in itself.
Like or hate the brand, I just wish for everyone to understand that it's perfectly reasonable for everyone to have their own set of standards. Willing to live with more liberal expectations does not make one morally superior to someone who has greater or more strict expectations, and I am saddened by the tone of messages being communicated to Uddie and others who do not see eye-to-eye with the members of the Invicta sect. You see anybody who likes watches of higher quality than Invicta (which is 85% of the forum members here at WTF) to be snobby, and have justified this observation in the past by pointing out watches we value are 10x or more what an Invicta costs. This is mistaken. We don't value our watches for what they cost, but for the quality embodied in our watches that Invicta just cannot match. I love my 150-dollar Hamilton (which has a case built in Asia) just as much as I love my Omega. Furthermore, it is upsetting when Invicta fans who own 10-25 Invicta watches to call enthusiasts of other brands spoiled, made of money, or heirs of a small fortune, when in comparison, the Invicta collector collections' at times cost equally as much or more in terms of money spent in acquisition.
While I'll avoid reciting 'Atlas Shrugged', I do like to point out that the having higher expectations for products you buy is not only virtuous, but is what drives a successful capitalist economy in the long run. From the 1960s on, product quality was replaced by flashy marketing campaigns and many manufacturing businesses became reliant on crafty sales schemes rather than devoting real effort into improving their products. Why? To sustain high sales expectations. In today's business atmosphere, as long as a mid-size company can sustain its sales quotas quarter after quarter, there's no reason to be concerned about any externalities they may be causing. Consumers, especially in the US, are growing to be increasingly more lackadaisical generation after generation, and will plunge money on just about anything nowadays. If you're one of those consumers who happily and periodically devote hundreds of dollars to a company that cares only about taking your money, then you're only encouraging their business model (or worse, creating a cause for competing companies to operate in the same dastardly manner). Does Invicta care about how its customers feel about their watches? Does Invicta place priority on creating quality products that last, or even caring whether or not a customer appreciates the purchased item for the duration of its expected lifespan? (Well, 3 Invictas I've bought all had a lifespan of less than one month so that's a double peccadillo). Evidence has yet to prove it does. It's evident to me that once Invicta has made the sale, it's done its job. They're not in the business of making watches, they're in the business of captivating on sales opportunities. Major watchmakers research the art and science of watchmaking, while Invicta researches consumer trends and sales forecasts. You must understand that for the majority of watch collectors, that reason alone makes a MAJOR difference and does much to dictate our less-than-fond feelings about the brand.
For what it's worth, I have far greater respect for anyone wearing a Timex or a Casio than an Invicta.
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Post by boscoe on Sept 10, 2007 0:42:51 GMT -5
A nifty and reasoned essay, wally.
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Post by amwilliams9 on Sept 10, 2007 1:34:47 GMT -5
Umm...I'm confused here. Maybe I missed something. I personally myself own Invicta watches and really am quite new to collecting watches. But am I to understand that if I purchase a Invicta watch or any watch that is sold on TV I am throwing away my money? Believe me I truly don't know enough at this time about all of the finer details of watch collecting. I do enjoy the ones I own. If you own a More recognized luxury watch Great!! One day I will Pull the trigger on my must have grail. But I must admit telling me that I am throwing away my money on a new found passion is a little strong. I believe that it was here where it was suggested to me that Invicta was a great place to start in this hobby. As a matter of fact it's been great fun for me so far. It does sting to have someone belittle me as a new watch collector because of the brand that I choose to start with. I really don't get it. "Start with Invicta the have the best bang for the buck" Now "Invicta is a crap company"? Having a large collection of watches from Invicta withe different movements function and styles is a starting place I would think. But sir although you are entitled to your opinion IMO stating it with intent to belittle anyone because of their choice is no different than saying I can't use the bathroom because of my culture, ethnic background etc. IMO. If I misread your post then Sorry.
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Post by koimaster on Sept 10, 2007 1:50:46 GMT -5
Wow! Hard to feel the love here. boscoe....JS posted at another forum that when Invicta purchased S.Coifman they also ended up with the ebauche company that Coifman had. He did mention that Invicta had owned an asian ebacuhe company for some time. Makes no real difference to me though. I buy what I like be it it Breguet, Renato or Breitling. I do not have to please anyone but myself. As to all the hostility I have read, they are watches not a discussion about abortion or the church. If you cannot tell the difference.........
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Post by wally on Sept 10, 2007 2:15:57 GMT -5
AMWilliams, I wish I still feel the same way about Invictas as you do. Those were happy (but ignorant) days. How did you get that impression about being belittled? I clearly stated that this isn't about money, and that most Invicta owners here own collections more expensive than regular posters on other forums. I had foreseen your opinion even before I wrote my post, and if you'll really read my post, you'll see that I love watches of equal or lesser monetary value compared to Invicta. MarkDL, Rusty, and many of the Invicta regulars own collections worth FAR more than mine. Like I expressed earlier, this is not about money. Why is it, that the first thing you bring up, is how much or how exclusive a watch is when that's not even what I wrote about? As for the way Invicta runs their business, some people get it, while others don't. However, no other brand on this forum causes a great divide like the one found here. I used to feel the same way you do about Invicta. My initial fondness of the company is what led me to this forum. But after a series of flops, learning the truth about the company, and seeing Eyal's sales presentations on shopnbc's site, hearing of all of issues from fellow forum members, I see why such disharmony exists around the brand (and have I caused some myself). It can either be taken lightly, or seriously. If read correctly, nobody's being belittled in my post. Like I said, it's not the consumer's fault that Invicta is just one big and hollow marketing ploy. Why not browse around the other forums a bit? You'll find a notable difference between tone with discussions are lead. But I do mean everything I wrote about Invicta. You can either perceive as a consumer warning, or ignore it and keep on buying Invictas. In the long run, I guarantee you the former will leave you happier. Many of us start out buying Invictas to begin a fascination with watches (even Mr. Holbrook himself) and have since grown a distaste for the brand as we found out more and more about it, as well as shared in people's agonies with poor quality, CS, and everything in between. ;D Koi, I've got a flare for dramatizing the simplest things into epics. Not that I exercise it often, but it is fun when I do. Let's see how far the others take this one.
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Post by Rusty on Sept 10, 2007 6:18:34 GMT -5
Alright then. . . we'll take this as far as it remains respectful. Let's remember. . . we are talking watches and the original question relates to SWISS MADE.
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Revolution
disciple
Pickin' and Grinnin"
Posts: 241
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Post by Revolution on Sept 10, 2007 10:40:48 GMT -5
wally and others, In some ways, I disagree your Atlas Shrugged, uber-capitalist analogy. Although I will probably get flamed for saying this, the Swiss watchmakers industry has succeeded not because of their superb capitalist strategy, but because of a decidedly anti-capitalist campaign starting in the 1920s. They formed a number of trade associations to defend the interests of the industry and made collective agreements to control output, pricing, and the exportation of Swiss components. Some historians have gone so far as to label it as a "Swiss Cartel." So when I hear purists on this board screaming about a lack of control over the designation of "Swiss-made," I think the industry thanks you plenty for your advocacy. The great names of the industry have succeeded by collectively managing their image marvelously and now generally convey reputations of quality and prestige. This is where the old argument of Thorstein Veblen's Theory of the Leisure Class works best: "at a high enough level, expensive prices actually stimulate demand. How better can one announce their exclusivity and success?" I think this thread is representative of the general disagreements in watch collecting. Invicta is competing in an area that the elite Swiss brands cannot... that is, high quality watches at affordable prices. So the Swiss cartels (and their fanboys) take shots at "impostors" and retreat back into their world where price is no longer a consideration. Generally, that is what is happening on this board. I'm not over in the Rolex forums telling everyone that their watches are overpriced. There may be those that do, and if so, shame on them. From where I stand, it certainly seems that purists are constantly taking shots at the Invicta brand because they are afraid the words "Swiss Made" attached to an Invicta watch will somehow devalue their "Truly Swiss Made" timepieces. Hey, that's it! I suggest that the Swiss cartels create a new designation... "Super-Duper Swiss-Made." Obviously I say some of these things in jest, but the point is to please forgive us over here at Invictaland if we get a bit defensive. I recognize that Invicta, like other brands, has room for improvement, particularly in the area of customer service. But we think we are smart enough to discern for ourselves what makes a good watch and don't like being told we were duped when we bought our Invictas, particularly by those who have moved on and now feel "enlightened." It comes off as arrogance and many on this sub-forum resent it and thusly reply in-kind. Alright, let me put my Nomex suit on. Now, flame away, for I am impervious to the fire. ;D
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Post by Rusty on Sept 10, 2007 11:13:58 GMT -5
LOL, Dave. And well said.
This is a question that will never be resolved and I have seen it debated over and over here and elsewhere. I believe you hit the nail on the head with your post listed above.
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Post by AutoMovement on Sept 10, 2007 11:32:51 GMT -5
@ Revolution . I understand some wish to inform their fellow WTF members of what they think or have experienced and that is very welcomed. That is what the forum is based on, everyone providing input even if it is not what the majority believes or likes. But when stating your viewpoint there is no need to talk down to your fellow members because it is not constructive or needed. I am not attacking anyone, but this forum is pretty enjoyable compared to some other forums I have viewed. So enjoy what you like or love because life is just to short.
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Post by koimaster on Sept 10, 2007 11:57:48 GMT -5
I curious as to why this board has recently become so hostile. Until recently almost all discussions were at their worst heated but there is a noticible recent trend towards attacks.
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Post by amwilliams9 on Sept 10, 2007 12:12:26 GMT -5
AMWilliams, I wish I still feel the same way about Invictas as you do. Those were happy (but ignorant) days. How did you get that impression about being belittled? I clearly stated that this isn't about money, and that most Invicta owners here own collections more expensive than regular posters on other forums. I had foreseen your opinion even before I wrote my post, and if you'll really read my post, you'll see that I love watches of equal or lesser monetary value compared to Invicta. MarkDL, Rusty, and many of the Invicta regulars own collections worth FAR more than mine. Like I expressed earlier, this is not about money. Why is it, that the first thing you bring up, is how much or how exclusive a watch is when that's not even what I wrote about? As for the way Invicta runs their business, some people get it, while others don't. However, no other brand on this forum causes a great divide like the one found here. I used to feel the same way you do about Invicta. My initial fondness of the company is what led me to this forum. But after a series of flops, learning the truth about the company, and seeing Eyal's sales presentations on shopnbc's site, hearing of all of issues from fellow forum members, I see why such disharmony exists around the brand (and have I caused some myself). It can either be taken lightly, or seriously. If read correctly, nobody's being belittled in my post. Like I said, it's not the consumer's fault that Invicta is just one big and hollow marketing ploy. Why not browse around the other forums a bit? You'll find a notable difference between tone with discussions are lead. But I do mean everything I wrote about Invicta. You can either perceive as a consumer warning, or ignore it and keep on buying Invictas. In the long run, I guarantee you the former will leave you happier. Many of us start out buying Invictas to begin a fascination with watches (even Mr. Holbrook himself) and have since grown a distaste for the brand as we found out more and more about it, as well as shared in people's agonies with poor quality, CS, and everything in between. ;D Koi, I've got a flare for dramatizing the simplest things into epics. Not that I exercise it often, but it is fun when I do. Let's see how far the others take this one. Well I know that you have your own opinions and you are free to express them. but I will say that how you express your opinion is where we don't see eye to eye. "those were happy but ingnorant days" My Invicta collecting means I'm ignorant? It's how you state your opinion not what your opinion is. You stated in a earlier post buying Invicta is throwing away your money. it's not the exact verbage but of course I sure that you can go back an see what you wrote. At some point I very well may grow into more diversity with my collection. But when I come to the Original Invicta forum I am expecting to see learn enjoy along with other Invicta owners the hobby of collecting Invicta watches. As far as Swiss made goes What is the problem? Perhaps I am ignorant on this subject. Most of my Invicta watches are Swiss Made. Are you saying that they are not? The Swiss Made Moniker is at the 6 o'clock position as mandated by the Swiss Federation. Are these Invicta watches not Swiss Made? Now don't misunderstand me I have had Invicta watches that were DOA one favorite Invicta watches had this problem. But IMO this does not make Invicta a bad company. Words can have a powerful effect on people. Now many of you say don't let what some say dissuade you from your decision but I disagree. If one is new to this thing of watch collecting they have to depend on research and advise given from those who may have been doing this for awhile is important. As a result opinions really do make a difference. The piling on syndrome as I like to call it is when someone has a problem, and all of a sudden everyone who has ever had a problem with Invicta jump in . I mean there are those who had an issue from 3 years ago and they jump into the fray. little advise or help is given.I have seen threads that started with help I need advise on a issue and 4 pages later it's all about how Invicta sucks. Maybe I am seeing through Rose colored glasses but IMO this is what's going on. I know this post was all over the place and I apologize.
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Post by wally on Sept 10, 2007 13:53:39 GMT -5
Guys, Invictas ARE expensive in my mind. For what they cost, I simply expect more.
This is NOT about exclusiveness or pricing. I've said that many and many times again. I love and own Casios, LACOs, Hamiltons, and they're all priced around the same as Invicta. Many of you have formed terrific posts on that basis that this is about pricing, but that was never even a point to begin with. "Swiss Cartels" and "Asian Factories" aside, I don't care where it was made as long as it's a quality product. Invicta, is not exactly the marques emblem of quality or craftsmanship.
What we have here is a natural progression of any Invicta topic. When a company operates the way that Invicta does, strong feelings will arise from either side. Cheer up, at least Invicta isn't as bad as Capital One yet. Look up peoples' opinions of that company, and you'll see what I'm writing about Invicta is nothing short of a glowing review in comparison. However, that's not to say that unless Invicta begins improving, I'll never think of the brand as anything more than a mere push-oriented manufacturer of fashion items.
@amw, I'm only 19 years old, and I didn't take up horology as a hobby until last September. My problems with Invicta are current. I don't know anyone who has had a problem with Invicta 3 years ago and still even deem it worthy of remembrance. We could only wish that Invicta can match its quality from 3-5 years ago. If they could, I might actually even consider the brand again. Although I used to be a very happy Invicta owner (only 9 months ago), I knew very little about the industry back then, which is why I claim I, and I alone, was ignorant that way.
Once again, Revolution, I wish Invicta is still a manufacturer of good quality products at low prices. If they were, I'd be an admirer of the brand just like you are. However, spending over 100 dollars on a watch for it to have the hands fall off after little over a month, that's what Invicta means to me. That's actually happened to me, along with a long list of other things (and within the past year, AMW).
As you all can see, this is NOT a discussion about HIGH END vs MID RANGE. Rather, this IS a discussion about "WHOLESOME PRODUCTS" vs "FLASHY TOYS WITH NO SUBSTANCE". As I stated in my initial post, I'd take a Timex or a Casio any day over a more expensive Invicta. At least I'm assured the quality and cheaper watch will still tick after a year.
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Post by amwilliams9 on Sept 10, 2007 13:57:20 GMT -5
However saying you have more respect for a person who buys Timex than a person who buys Invicta is a direct attack what do you think?
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