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Post by molihe on Oct 8, 2007 2:14:50 GMT -5
[spam link removed]
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Post by cougar on Oct 8, 2007 4:16:26 GMT -5
For those concerned about "low cost" ETA movements in watches ... First of all, everyone has the right to their own opinions and if that is truly the way you feel then I can't and won't tell you that you are wrong. Perhaps you should think about only buying watches with in-house movements. Personally, I see the 1K-2K watch market as an "entry level" for mechanical watches. I see it as entirely appropriate for mfrs. to use ETA as a source of high quality, tried and true SWISS movements.
In reply to a few specific comments ... Timefinder mentions that ... "watches, like jewelry" ... have large markups. Watches ARE jewelry. If you accept that massive markups are okay for other jewelry, then why not for timepieces as well?
Several comments were made about inexpensive ETA movements being used. Remember that costs for anything are market driven. The reason those movements are not expensive is because they are so widely used.
One final thought. Remember that a fine watch is more than a collection of parts. If this were not the case, then any watches that use the same movement could be thought of as the same product. Just think about all the different watches that use the same movement - ETA 2824 for example. Now line them all up next to each other. I think you'll find that you have a wide and varied selection of timepieces, some casual, some dressy, some a little funky. They all have the same "heart" but they are each unique in their own way.
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Post by foghorn on Oct 8, 2007 7:06:25 GMT -5
Well stated Mr.Cougar.
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Post by boscoe on Oct 8, 2007 9:23:40 GMT -5
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Post by gearhead99 on Oct 8, 2007 16:21:10 GMT -5
Great post Cougar..
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Post by Peter Rivard on Oct 8, 2007 21:38:01 GMT -5
The movement isn't the only part of the watch. Machining a top quality case, setting in a good sapphire crystal, getting the dial just right, especially with all those tiny vials--and the cost of the vials themselves--those other parts and labor add to the cost. To say the movement cost $70 or $80 and thus the markup is 1000% or more is ridiculous. Prev. poster makes it sound like the only difference between watches is the movement, as if the rest of a watch cost the maker $20, whether it were a Ball or a Lorus.
Just looking at the solid cases on my Ball watches, it's like slamming the door on an old Mercedes--the sound alone told you that it was put together solidly. Anyone else who looks closely at one of my watches can see the same thing, even if they're not into watches. And the movements of my watches show that quite a bit of care went into them, too--my two Ball watches consistently run +2 (Engineer Master II Moonphase) and +5 (Moonglow) seconds fast a day. I can't complain about a movement that's made well enough to do that. If my interest were more in how much the watch would be worth in ten years and less in how well made it is and how much pleasure I take in wearing it now, then yes, I might care more about what color the screws are--but then, of course, I'd regard the extra money for one of the COSC watches or for another brand with a higher grade movement as simply part of the investment.
Note to prev. poster--claiming that you are "evolved" compared to us lesser souls: precious!
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Post by timefinder on Oct 9, 2007 9:03:36 GMT -5
So let me ask it this way then using your Mercedes anaology. Would you buy a Kompressor that had a 4 cylinder Kia engine in it? After all, it is just the engine, and all the other components, Sound, lights, interior, exterior, are all Mercedes, and was installed with the greatest care, and still receive 4/5 star crash ratings. So who cares about a tiny motor in such a great car?
Just does not work for me. A less than $100 movement in a watch of this magnitude does not cut it. If Ball uses their own movements, or a greater movement, I would consider this. Just like a consumer would not purchase a Mercedes with a Kia engine.
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Post by boscoe on Oct 9, 2007 12:01:13 GMT -5
Timefinder, there are all levels of movements - and the movement is the least costly part of the watch. Forgive me if I've said this before. Watches are jewelry, so you're paying for quality case work and design. While Tiffany may be over-priced (and thus a bad analogy), when you buy a gold ring you are not merely paying for the gold weight alone. You are paying for the design and craftsmanship that went into making it. Believe me, not all 20 gram gold bracelets, necklaces and rings are made the same.
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Post by timefinder on Oct 9, 2007 12:36:17 GMT -5
I agree; but, I view the movement as the workhorse and 'heart and motor' of the watch. So from that perspective, I feel that the same care that is put into the watch, should go into the heart and motor or heart and soul of the watch. If a person spends thousand and thousands of dollars on a receiver, turntable, discplayer, subwoofer, and all related items, and then only spends $200 on the speakers, it is just not the same. That is how I am viewing it. When all the time and effort is spent creating the watch, and then to only put a movement in there that costs less than $80, it cheapens the watch. Had Ball used a better movement, or their own, I think people would be more interested in the watch, or view it with more prestige.
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Post by foghorn on Oct 9, 2007 16:02:38 GMT -5
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Post by boscoe on Oct 9, 2007 16:16:51 GMT -5
Both links go right to the heart of the issue, Foggy.
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Post by Scott D on Oct 9, 2007 16:55:52 GMT -5
Both great links, but the first one is extremely educating... Thanks!
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Post by Scott D on Oct 9, 2007 17:19:25 GMT -5
Ok, so I've read this thread front to back a couple of times here, and have come with a question. And forgive me, I'm not the most technical when it comes to movements. I know some of the speak, but couldn't tell you one iota of a difference between the grades.
OK, so the question....
Does it really matter what the grade is?
Here's why I ask. I understand most of the mid to upper mfrs modify the movement to some extend. Some less, some more. So is a out of the box top tier ETA any better than a bottom tier ETA that has been moderately or heavily modified by the watch manufacture? Would you rather have an out of box Type 4 ETA than a Type 2 that was extensively modified by the watch manufacture? Is ETA better at making something "top tier" than another company, such as Ball (or any other)? I don't know... I don't know alot about Balls, so I don't know what level of modifications they have (Jeremy, can you give some general comments on how much modifying is done?), but if I'm a manufacture and I know I'm going to just take the movement apart to modify it, add some parts and basically rebuild it as "my top tier" what advantage would I have in buying a more expensive tier if I'm going to be giving it that same value add in-house thru modifications? To do so would 1) be a waste and 2) add even more expense. When looking at that part of the equation, are we really comparing apples to apples when we say this mfr starts with level 2 and this guys starts with level 5 so the level 5 is better even though the level 2 may be modified much more than the out of box level 5 movement? Again, I don't know - so I'm asking.
Also, While the movement is important, there's definitely more to the watch and all the other parts aren't the same. I think the bracelet is a very important part of the watch, (almost) as much so as the movement & not all bracelets are created equal. I've bought aftermarket bracelets that feel like they'll fall apart in a week of sitting on my dresser and then spending more, get one that I think I could almost drop out of a plane without damaging it one bit. And there again, adds overall cost...
And last question, aren't in-house movements (as a rule) not available in these price points? I don't know of any completely in-house mfrs less than $5000 for a plain Jane SS model. Any out there $1500 - 2500 one out there?
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Post by boscoe on Oct 9, 2007 18:04:55 GMT -5
@scott: the answer to your question is:
Um...it depends.
On a midrange watch, I'd rather have an ETA modified and highly decorated movement. Or a COSC grade, but we're mostly talking 2824s and VJ 7750s here.
Higher end watches use my beloved 2892 and a modified version of it for chronos. I would rather have this movement since it is my all-time favorite. I believe it is the best of all possible worlds. Besides, I'm never really certain how much actual modification gets done.
In-house movements are interesting to us watch geeks, but don't mean a thing in the real world. And I think the ETA 2892 - in say an Omega - is actually superior to an in-house Rolex. No wars please. JMO.
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Post by Scott D on Oct 9, 2007 19:18:03 GMT -5
Hey Bos,
Thanks... So that's kinda my point here.. So relevant to a Ball 2824-2, we can't say a level 2 movement may (I do say may here people...) not be 'better' than an out-of-box level 4 or 5 with no mods. Depending on the mods that take place at Ball, which I'm sure is pretty closely held information, by all manufactures.... Would that be a true statement?
Again, just trying to become educated (I know - a very tall order)... Personally, I could care less.. As long as the watch has a good, reliable movement, is well built & I like it - I'll look to buy it.. I do care about ETA vs. some chinese, plastic toy movement - but from ETA to ETA, as long as it's backed by a quality company, I'm in...
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