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Post by jacques on Oct 9, 2007 21:40:32 GMT -5
A couple of points from the least knowledgeable person on this forum.
I do not think that my Dual Time is a cheap watch. I wore an old Hamilton for years, and the difference between the Hamilton and the Ball is remarkable. There was a tremendous amount of attention given to the watch-- from the RR styling on the crown on second hand, to the engravings to the dial. And I am not even including the tritium tubes. No one ever noticed the Hamilton. Several people have noticed and complimented my Ball.
The new Lotus has a Toyota engine. That being said, it is not a Toyota, but a performance sports car. My watch has an ETA base, but it is not a cheap swatch. The time has been within COSC standards. The styling is elegant. And it is a solid, solid watch.
If there are any car buffs out there, I would love to know the cost of engines relative to the over all cost of the car.
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Post by Scott D on Oct 9, 2007 21:55:34 GMT -5
A couple of points from the least knowledgeable person on this forum. HEY!!!! That's my claim to fame!!!!  ;D ;D ;D Excelent points.. And I agree. I don't think anyone is saying the Ball isn't well made. I think most would say it is very well made watch. Whether that value in workmanship, including the mvement, it's worth the price relative to that workmanship, well - I think so but that's a personal decision each person needs to make I guess. Good point on the car question - I have no idea but would like to know too.... Any motor-heads out there??? ;D |
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Post by timefinder on Oct 9, 2007 22:31:46 GMT -5
I agree. I do not think anyone here is questioning the workmanship of Ball; but, rather the cost of the movement relative to the cost of the watch and other factors. That is the real debate, and whether people feel it is worth it to spend 2K or higher on a watch with a $75 movement.
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Post by boscoe on Oct 11, 2007 21:06:50 GMT -5
@time: In a word, no.
But people buy Rolex all the time (LOL!LOL!LOL!)
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Post by timefinder on Oct 11, 2007 23:48:32 GMT -5
Boscoe:
How much does a Rolex movement cost? I would not think it would be public as they are a private company.
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ericf4
innocent
Better to Be Kicked out than to Quit!!!
Posts: 30
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Post by ericf4 on Oct 12, 2007 14:52:55 GMT -5
Hell my Breitling has a caliber that based on a ETA 2824 i believe....
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Post by timefinder on Oct 12, 2007 21:07:13 GMT -5
Eric: You may be right. I thought I read where Scott D said the same thing. @scottd: Is that accurate?
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Post by scosgt on Oct 12, 2007 22:37:03 GMT -5
In some ways I think this conversaiton is silly. I own 5 Ball watches, three of which are chronometers. They all keep within 2 seconds a day after being regulated. How would having a "better" movement improve that?
If they used anything other than an ETA movement, everyone would be complaining about how their local watchmaker can not get parts and do regulation, and they have to pay Ball an exhorbitant fee to get their watches serviced (can you say ROLEX at $500 per service??).
The markup is really not the issue. If the Company can not make money, it goes out of business. The original Ball company did exactly that.
These watches are put together by skilled craftsmen. They are inspected and packed. The are shipped, without a doubt by Air. They are passed thru Customs by a broker. Import Duty is paid. A disributor takes his cut and sends the watch to an AD, who sells the watch and takes HIS cut.
The $1000 price is NOT $1000 to the factory. Yes, there is a markup, when you consider the cost to manufacture against the suggested retail. BUT, you also have to include everyone else who gets money out of the sale along the way. If you put a chronometer movement into every watch, every watch has to list for at least $2000+
And that is assuming you can even get enough high grade movements to go around.
I think that the grade of movement used in a particular watch is really somewhat irrelevent. The bottom line is the entire package. The trainmaster arabic chronometer is NOT a $2K watch without the tubes. MAYBE it is a $600 or $700 suggested retail. But add the tubes and you have the deal. So we are paying not only for the quality build, but also the technology.
Unlike the auto industry, where the manufacturers generally build their own engines, almost NO watch company actually builds it's own movements. Just about all "Swiss" watches use some version of an ETA movement. And they can start with the lowest grade (which Ball does not) and modify it in house to make it better than the highest grade of ETA. So what does it matter what grade they start with?
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Post by Scott D on Oct 12, 2007 22:46:54 GMT -5
Hey scosgt, well put!
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Post by Scott D on Oct 12, 2007 22:48:36 GMT -5
Eric: You may be right. I thought I read where Scott D said the same thing. @scottd: Is that accurate? Yup - That is correct....  The Steelfish has the B17 calibre, built on the 2824... And adjusted (suposedly substantially - but I'm not invited to confirm ) to a fine lean, mean, time-keepin' machine! |
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Post by bullosa on Oct 13, 2007 1:25:04 GMT -5
Thx scosgt and jacques for putting it across so well. The watch market have too few in between the extremes. One catergory are those with movement that are relatively cost efficient (not cheap) with the rest o the package (casing, bracelet, crystal, dial, hands, lumes costing significantly more often when compared to the movement). The other markups are explained by Scosgt.
Put an in house movement (aka low production, high cost) and most watches would be selling in the 5 figure price range onwards. (Exceptions to Rolex, Omega, and Grand Seikos).
@mr Timefinder, I hope that the answers and responses will help you decide in your next watch buy. In my opinion, Ball remains one of the best bang for the buck for Swiss Made watches.
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Post by timefinder on Oct 13, 2007 22:05:15 GMT -5
@ Bullosa: I very much enjoy these friendly debates, as everyone has an opinion; but, it is done in a rational manner. To bad the politicians could not take this advice.
To be honest, I am still on the fence; but, I am still drawn to the Trainmaster Cleveland Express. Maybe I will take a drive by, and see what I get for a discount around Christmas time.
BTW, Jeremy are you around? Be interesting to hear what you have to say as well. If permissible to state, are the movements modified in any way?
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Post by bullosa on Oct 14, 2007 0:46:52 GMT -5
@mr Timefinder, no problem at all with the discussion. It's okay to be careful with your purchase. If any watch manufacturer can get a customer like you, I am sure it will be Ball. ;D ;D A Ball COSC certified watch should meet your expectations. Again, wish you all the best!
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Post by boscoe on Oct 14, 2007 14:56:12 GMT -5
I have no idea what a Rolex movement actually costs. But the designs are about 50 (or more years old, basically) - I'm sure they are relatively inexpensive.
And we know know Patek has used slight of hand (see the old auction thread elsewhere) to artificially inflate its perceived value.
My ETA based Omega SMP is one of the most accurate I own.
I am a great fan of ETA movements and, frankly, rarely sweat the movement in a watch if it is an ETA. However, I have said many times the 2892 is much more refined than the 2824 series and is my ETA of choice.
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;D ;D ;D
