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Post by JBHII on Oct 24, 2004 16:09:27 GMT -5
It amazes me, you can slag someone off, you can use certain profanitys, people even appear to worship watches in the name of being WIS, however mention Jesus and all hell breaks lose, John, I would suggest you have been obedient to God which is part of our Christian walk, the Christian life (a live as Jesus Christ asks us to live after we have accepted His salvation plan for mankind) is an adventure not for wimps, religion however is for fools and sucks, Jesus continued to knock religion.... I listen to enough of what the world has to offer, why shouldent we shout out and rejoice in the thrill of being born again, I became a Christian at 23, how on earth I thought life was good before that is anybodys guess, and it was purely my choice....Keep on praisin John PTL Thanks for the encouragement Jon! Jesus was crucified, and all but one of his Disciples were either beheaded, crucified, or otherwise killed for their beliefs. If this is the worst I get for speaking out for the Lord, then I know nothing of suffering. John
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Post by Jack Neima on Oct 24, 2004 19:46:02 GMT -5
stories continue. I was mentoring a young graduate of seminary getting ready to become a chaplain with the US Army but he had to do a funeral before he went in. You just can't drum up a funeral at the drop of a hat. It was November and he was going in Jan. I got a call from the guard and their pastor was in Iraq and they needed a military funeral. God supplied "just the man" and he did a great job. Great gift, John, our lord will bless you and yours.
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SFE
follower
Posts: 67
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Post by SFE on Oct 25, 2004 12:05:25 GMT -5
Everyone, I am the buyer of the GMT II - it is so good to read this post by John, b/c he did not even share with me the entire story - My side is that my first watch purchase (Rolex) that is - was back in 1990 - is was a pepsi bezel GMT. I loved the watch - was in Grad School at the time - had just graduated from College - one that as it turns out is in John's Back yard of Ohio - if fact it turns out that John knows people who graduated from my college - it is a small private school - Anyway - my wife sold my prize for the down payment on our first house - I have owned numerous watches since that time - including 3 other Rolex - but have always wished I had the pepsi bezel GMT - I moved from Ohio to New Mexico 3.5 years ago - and "met" John - in forums - we have the exact same belief in God and also our love of Watches. I just moved to Illinois - and did not have to "sell" a watch this time (trust me it has happened twice!) so I thought I would start a new trend and buy one - I emailed John - looking for a few good sources - we have let each other know in the past where to find good buys on Omega, etc..... and you know the rest of the story! It is truly an honor and priveledge to be used in this way for John and his Church! Stephen
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Post by JBHII on Oct 25, 2004 12:09:18 GMT -5
stories continue. I was mentoring a young graduate of seminary getting ready to become a chaplain with the US Army but he had to do a funeral before he went in. You just can't drum up a funeral at the drop of a hat. It was November and he was going in Jan. I got a call from the guard and their pastor was in Iraq and they needed a military funeral. God supplied "just the man" and he did a great job. Great gift, John, our lord will bless you and yours. Thank you Jack - and thank you for sharing this story with us too! John
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Post by JBHII on Oct 25, 2004 12:12:53 GMT -5
Everyone, I am the buyer of the GMT II - it is so good to read this post by John, b/c he did not even share with me the entire story - My side is that my first watch purchase (Rolex) that is - was back in 1990 - is was a pepsi bezel GMT. I loved the watch - was in Grad School at the time - had just graduated from College - one that as it turns out is in John's Back yard of Ohio - if fact it turns out that John knows people who graduated from my college - it is a small private school - Anyway - my wife sold my prize for the down payment on our first house - I have owned numerous watches since that time - including 3 other Rolex - but have always wished I had the pepsi bezel GMT - I moved from Ohio to New Mexico 3.5 years ago - and "met" John - in forums - we have the exact same belief in God and also our love of Watches. I just moved to Illinois - and did not have to "sell" a watch this time (trust me it has happened twice!) so I thought I would start a new trend and buy one - I emailed John - looking for a few good sources - we have let each other know in the past where to find good buys on Omega, etc..... and you know the rest of the story! It is truly an honor and priveledge to be used in this way for John and his Church! Stephen Welcome to the forum Stephen! I was purposefully "holding out" the full story for dramatic impact! That's why I kept asking, "hey, have you checked out the forum? ;D ;D I hope this story will make your new GMT Master II all the more special. Thanks again Stephen! John
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Post by B2man on Oct 25, 2004 17:19:47 GMT -5
But, I do feel pushing one's faith on a watch forum is a matter that I would rather not see.
First of all, I do not have the same beliefs as you and I would rather not see them. While it certainly your forum to do what you wish, I would prefer to not have to read about how GOD is awesome and beautiful.
I agree with freedom of speach and will always stand to protect it. I do also feel there are places that are more appropriate for these types of discussions...ie, Church, family, close friends, etc.
A watch forum should be for discussing watches and not how some higher being stepped in a oversaw your watch sale.
This is purely my opinion and I hope I do not offend anyone as well.
Marc
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Post by JBHII on Oct 25, 2004 17:30:38 GMT -5
But, I do feel pushing one's faith on a watch forum is a matter that I would rather not see. First of all, I do not have the same beliefs as you and I would rather not see them. While it certainly your forum to do what you wish, I would prefer to not have to read about how GOD is awesome and beautiful. I agree with freedom of speach and will always stand to protect it. I do also feel there are places that are more appropriate for these types of discussions...ie, Church, family, close friends, etc. A watch forum should be for discussing watches and not how some higher being stepped in a oversaw your watch sale. This is purely my opinion and I hope I do not offend anyone as well. Marc Sorry you feel that way Marc. But to be fair, I'm not "pushing my faith" on anyone. It's simply an amazing story that I chose to share. There's a big difference there that I hope you'll recognzie. John
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Post by B2man on Oct 25, 2004 17:51:03 GMT -5
I'm not here to start a problem but lets be honest here.
You have in your signature "Believer in, and enjoying a personal relationship with Jesus Christ" and then you post about your experience and how it was correlated with God. If your story was simply a message about how you were giving the funds of your watch sale to your church I would not be thinking anything except what a nice gesture that is.
However, you go on to talk specifically about Jesus and your beliefs in God.
I think there is a difference and I do feel you are pushing a little too much religion here. That's my opinion. I don't think any less of you for it, just be honest in what your intentions are for professing your beliefs.
I am not a fan of those who preach their beliefs. I feel it is personal and should be private.
Again, my .02 cents. Thanks for hearing me out.
Marc
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Post by clepsydra on Oct 26, 2004 7:50:34 GMT -5
I have, for the most part, foregone this forum for the very reason that I don't need (nor want) a watch enthusiast's site to remind me of God's place in the lives of the forum participants......
.....but I do monitor this site if for no other reason than to be entertained by some of the misinformation being disseminated about wrist horology.
[The rest of this post has been deleted for being inflamatory]
You are certainly welcome to particiapte in this forum if you can be respectful of me, as well as our other forum participants.
I've allowed you to voice your opposition in a previous post to my sharing a story of faith on this forum. To do so again, with the tone and word choice you've chosen here is simply being antagonistic. Additionally, your comment about missinformation being disseminated is also unnacceptable. You've been praised by many here for your previous attempts to share your considerable technical knowledge. Why then would you tear your own image here down by going out of your way to insult others?
Clearly my post has struck a nerve with you, and I'm sorry as that wasn't my intention. But that certainly doesn't excuse your recent outbursts. And to be honest, it is my forum - if I want to share a story with the forum that mentions God, I will do so.
I hope you'll stick around and return to your previous style of helpful participation in our community.
John
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Post by clepsydra on Oct 26, 2004 9:31:13 GMT -5
Here's another one for you to modify (or perhaps delete), John......though I hope you find the courage to keep it posted.
Why are so frightened to have anyone question your proselytizing on this site? You feel that the valid content of my post was inflammatory? Really?
You, John, made the conscious decision to introduce your religion and spirituality into your posts and comments....
...sure it's you ball, bat, and playing field, and if we don't like it we can pack up our spikes and go home...
.....but why are you afraid to debate the very subject (God vis-a-vis a watch forum) that you so inappropriately introduced here.
By the way, doesn't your modification of my post reinforce my comment that there's more than a touch of evangelism attached to your posts and comments? This is a serious inquiry.
It's too bad, really, because this forum had some promise, and it could have been a site that offered valuable information to a number of watch enthusiasts.
It would be nice if this site concentrated on horology and left the theology for another, more appropriate venue.
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Post by JBHII on Oct 26, 2004 9:50:38 GMT -5
Here's another one for you to modify (or perhaps delete), John......though I hope you find the courage to keep it posted. Why are so frightened to have anyone question your proselytizing on this site? You feel that the valid content of my post was inflammatory? Really? You, John, made the conscious decision to introduce your religion and spirituality into your posts and comments.... ...sure it's you ball, bat, and playing field, and if we don't like it we can pack up our spikes and go home... .....but why are you afraid to debate the very subject (God vis-a-vis a watch forum) that you so inappropriately introduced here. By the way, doesn't your modification of my post reinforce my comment that there's more than a touch of evangelism attached to your posts and comments? This is a serious inquiry. It's too bad, really, because this forum had some promise, and it could have been a site that offered valuable information to a number of watch enthusiasts. It would be nice if this site concentrated on horology and left the theology for another, more appropriate venue. Clep, Look, this really isn't worth debating as neither of us stand a chance of winning. But I will point a couple of things out in the spirit of openness: -Nobody's scared of anything Clep. Only 2 people (you and Marc) have expressed any opposition to my post. I let you both speak your mind. There's a difference between expressing your opinion, and begin antagonistic. You've unfortunately crossed that line. -Out of 500 plus posts on my part, only one has a topic that openly discusses my faith. That's a pretty small percentage there Clep! Don't you think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill here? You act as though that ratio is reversed. Clearly you're going to be offended by any mention of a higher power. Again, I've no intention of offending you or anyone else. But I think you could be a little thicker skinned in this regard. No one's forcing you to read each and every post. If one out of every 500 offends you personally, isn't it easier just to skip over that post and move on? In the end Clep, you don't want ANY mention of God on this forum, and that's simply not going to happen. That's not a topic for debate - sorry if that sounds harsh. Now, let's all please move on to different topics. John
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Post by B2man on Oct 26, 2004 9:52:00 GMT -5
Pretty recently I was asked by John why I hadn't visited in a while. I was untruthful when I responded that I had forgotten about this place and was busy. There were two main reasons why I was not around... One was the place was a little slow in posts and I wanted to give some time for the content to grow and scan through. The other was the fact that the religious slant this place has turns me off. If I wanted to see content on God and jesus I would go to a religious website. I want to discuss watches and that is what I would like to see here. THe signiture that John has turns me off and is not inviting for me to participate. One's beliefs of god and religion belong to themselves and god. Not as personal license plates for the world to see. John, I know you know I like your work and your opinions. However, in this case, the religious stuff has to go. I can take political ads and fake Rolex ads but the stuff you can control like religious content should be left for church and your own personal life. Marc
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Post by MikeS on Oct 26, 2004 9:57:44 GMT -5
i personally am surprised how so many people let these signature bother them. I for one am not offended by this and would not let it effect me.
The signature section to me is a way for someone to give a brief way of expressing who they are or aren't. I have been to several forums and seen alot of signatures with God in them and others with worse.
I really hope we are all able to find a happy median in life and get by this.
I have posted over 500 times here and John has only once shared his experience and has never preached or pushed God on anyone. I am always open to other's views and respect those who post ther indifferences!
Have you guys emailed John to discuss your dislikes?
Mike Steg
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Post by JBHII on Oct 26, 2004 10:05:28 GMT -5
John, I know you know I like your work and your opinions. However, in this case, the religious stuff has to go. I can take political ads and fake Rolex ads but the stuff you can control like religious content should be left for church and your own personal life. Marc This will be the last word on this topic. Look guys, you've made yourselves abundantly clear in your opinions on this topic. Repeating the same message over and over isn't helping matters. God's part of this forum guys. And he's here to stay. Once again, I ask all parties involved to drop this issue and move on. John
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spazimodo
innocent
The mind is a mansion, but most of the time we are content to live in the lobby
Posts: 16
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Post by spazimodo on Oct 26, 2004 10:29:28 GMT -5
I’m not a religious person but I do defend the right of John Holbrook to proselytize his faith if he so wishes, and certainly it is his absolute right to do so on his own forum. He speaks of his faith because it is part of his life and he sees relevance to it in what he does on a daily basis, including the selling of a watch for a particular purpose.
I have difficulty with ‘beliefs’ and equal difficulty with either a ‘belief’ in God, or, the ‘belief’ that God does not exist. Beliefs are not truths, they are just beliefs. For as many people who believe it is right to behave in a charitable manner towards their fellow men, there are as many who believe otherwise. Both sincerely believe they are right. This is the danger of belief.
That said, I have no problem with John Holbrook’s convictions because my judgment of the true Christian ethic if practised correctly, is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That surely is a principle which carries a value above and beyond any religious connotation. A religion which espouses the indiscriminate killing of ‘infidels’ would be judged differently, although such a religion if interpreted correctly might not actually condone such things. It all depends on what a person chooses to believe. Hence the danger of ‘belief’.
Clapsydra’s difficulty with John Holbrook’s ‘belief’ arises from his own ‘belief’ that God does not exist. He doesn’t actually say that, but I think we can take it as ‘given’ that it is the case, and were he to deny it, who would ‘believe’ him? He would surely not have continued to pursue this criticism if were a believer.
Clapsydra’s criticism of the religious content of this forum is simply another form of proselytism. Clapsydra is a poselyte to his belief in the non-existence of God, and in his ‘belief’ he believes that such things are not relevant or without value. This is Clepsydra’s dogma, would that he had the wit to recognize his own prejudice. Clepsydra finds it easy to identify what he perceives as another person’s dogma, but is blind to his own, and equally blind to the prejudiced judgment he passes as a result.
If Clapsydra does not like the religious content of this forum, he doesn’t have to frequent it. I must commend him tho’ for his diligence in personally voluntarily taking on the onerous responsibility for ‘monitoring’ what goes on here. We surely owe him a great debt of thanks for this unsolicited overseeing the proceedings, even if it’s only for his own amusement. Is it just me, or does anyone else detect a certain patronizing tone in that assertion from Clepsydra?
For those of you who don’t know Clapsydra I can tell you that when it comes to things mechanical and technical in relation to watches and their movements, he is truly without equal. He is an horological expert among experts, second to none in his expertise in that field. I say this in his defence because although I censure him for his prejudice and intolerance, I am bound by the principle of evenhandedness to give credit where it is due.
Unfortunately, that’s as far as his expertise and understanding goes. He doesn’t seem to understand what I would consider to be the fairly simple principle of the absolute right of a person to conduct his own forum in a manner which he sees fit.
He doesn’t seem to understand just how inappropriate it is to come here and proselytize his own particular beliefs, and he certainly doesn’t understand that he himself is guilty of the very same thing. He doesn’t seem to understand the fairly basic principle of tolerance of another’s point of view. The problem with prejudice is that those who are guilty of it are blind to their intolerance. I say this in the knowledge that none of us are free of it. We all have our prejudices, and perhaps the first step to ameliorating the problem is a recognition and acceptance of this fact. If you recognise you have it within you, then you are in a position to address the problem. The alternative is to live in denial.
This topic has been discussed in another place where I have defended John Holbrook’s rights, and have stated that I considered the arguments put forward to by Clapsydra in support of his criticisms of this forum to be specious and tendentious, and they are. I am also not so naïve as to discount the possibility that further posts here from Clapsydra might have been made with the intention of eliciting a response from me. If that is the case, I have obliged.
It was Voltaire who said, ‘I may not agree with what you say, but to your death I will defend your right to say it’ and while that applies equally to the opinion of Clapsydra, within the context of this forum once he has had his say, further labouring of the point is not productive.
The criticism of Clapsydra of the content of this thread is symptomatic of his tendency to tendentious argument. All threads in all forums stray away from the topic, so what’s new? However, to criticise the religious content of this particular thread after making a post criticizing the religious content of this forum in the Rolex Watch section of another forum, to me smacks of a certain hypocrisy.
This is the watch forum of a person of religious conviction. If religion is not your thing, take what you will and leave the rest. It’s quite simple really if you’re tolerant. Personally I’m intolerant of intolerance.
So Clapsydra, any horological contribution you might care to make to this forum would I am sure be welcome; your expertise is unparalleled. If you are aware of any misinformation, rather than just alluding to it, perhaps it will be more constructive if you make a positive contribution by way of correction. Please however, don’t bring your intolerance and prejudice with you, because prejudice is simply another form of misinformation from without your area of expertise. Just stick to what you know.
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